• EconMan
    3.3k
    This is fascinating. It presents alcohol extraction much more attractively, albeit on an ultra high-tech basis, than I've heard from folks? Anyone have thoughts/experiences here?

    And amazed, this is obviously an exceptionally well-funded lab. :starstruck:

    @okla68m, this is your thing :starstruck:

  • Gman
    1k
    OMG he says everything I've been saying for so long, like how can people claim CO2 extraction when they are then using another solvent after!!! I love this guy!!!

    This is the future of solvents, ethanol, I've been saying it for a while. For carts anyway :) I still like rosin for wax and I'm not a huge shatter fan. But if you want shatter, the ethanol method is the best IMO.
  • Baron23
    8.4k
    how can people claim CO2 extraction when they are then using another solvent after!Gman

    Well, pretty much the same way that people claim hydrocarbon extraction for shatter but it is in fact winterized in ethanol, right?

    I have no beef with this guy or ethyl extraction....none at all....just another extraction method.

    But I do question, or at least think, that he made some claims that may be a stretch.

    1. He says that they keep the ethyl very cold to make it "less polar". Good move, he didn't say non-polar so while less polar it will still have some polar characteristics which means it will pull some water soluble compounds out...like, maybe chlorophyll?

    2. He said that they are running their ethyl at -50 to -75C which means max low temp of -103 F. NOT something we are getting by putting Everclear into our home freezers, right?

    3. He said something about CO2 and how it would need to be cleaned up...at least for carts...so, its winterized in ethyl. Now guys, I am NO expert on this and am just like you...I have been digging and trying to understand a subject that is also surrounded by a lot of marketing smoke. But, I have been told that they distill after CO2, remove what they want, in most cases do seperate terp runs (with shake and trim, maybe). What I do know, as we have this product in MD, is that its dead nuts clean. There ain't no lipids or waxes in it....I have dabbed the stuff and it comes up very clean. Now, I can't swear that they clean it with distillation and not winterizing it with ethyl, but this is NOT shatter I'm talking about...its very nice carts and terp sauce (basically the shit in the carts that they sell in a container for whatever).

    Its very cool, def not as dangerous as hydrocarbon but I don't see it as being all that much different that other processes and his last stage....his reduction stage...looked a lot like a distillation rig to me.

    I'm not trying to be confrontational about this vid....quite the opposite...I like it and I think ethyl is WAY cool. I'm just not sure we got the full picture and completely fair comparisons.

    Please do school me...this is an interest of mine.

    Cheers
  • Startedat52
    1.3k
    Interesting and fascinating, thanks.
  • Gman
    1k
    It's really situational imo. It's tough to get the same "wax" from ethanol as you can CO2 or rosin because to get that much wax with ethanol you also take the chlorophyll, like you assumed, because of it's polar nature. This guy is just skipping all the other extraction techs and going straight to ethanol, which a LOT of LP's in the US do now and is become a huge trend. CO2 is still good, but it's difficult to do some end results without a solvent. Rosin is the same, you'd have to clean it to really make it pen worthy or get stable shatter from it.
  • Baron23
    8.4k
    Thanks....I appreciate the response and info.
  • To the Cloud
    587
    great share...... so then these go through another level of testing after extracted ? What machines do that and does it have to be a different party (meaning Capna systems cannot do it themselves ) ?
  • EconMan
    3.3k
    Well, pretty much the same way that people claim hydrocarbon extraction for shatter but it is in fact winterized in ethanol, right?Baron23

    Disclaimer: I am FAR from an expert in this, in fact somewhere in low-intermediate.

    I see no necessary condition for the "winterization" (distillation with alcohol)? It would be necessary for oil, but not shatter.

    As a high level flow (regardless of "system" - ghetto or mindful):
    BLAST ==> COLLECT ==> EVAPORATE ==> POUR ==> VACUUM

    great share...... so then these go through another level of testing after extracted ? What machines do that and does it have to be a different party (meaning Capna systems cannot do it themselves ) ?To the Cloud

    Yeah, and as Baron points out, all those high-end carts that use CO2 that claim "solventless" are full of bullshit because they still distill their product onto "cartable" oil -- it's the only way to truly get it pure. So when Stiiizy claims it is solventless, they mean the "blast" was solventless. And then there is the confusing problem that every bona fide chemist I know tells me CO2 is a solvent itself.

    If "solventless" is the highest value, the only choice is take up hash2rosin extraction and strive for excellence. It is most rewarding.


    It's tough to get the same "wax" from ethanol as you can CO2 or rosin because to get that much wax with ethanol you also take the chlorophyll,Gman

    Yeah, and when you taste that stuff it can be nasty, at least to me :vomit:
    I've never had good success with alcohol. I see other have it and think, "how do they do that?" :)
  • Baron23
    8.4k
    I see no necessary condition for the "winterization" (distillation with alcohol)? It would be necessary for oil, but not shatter.EconMan

    Well, given that neither of us have any true expertise, this should be a really interesting exchange!! haha

    So, my understanding is that winterization is exactly how you get from wax to shatter. That is, the output from the hydrocarbon extraction is then winterized in very cold ethyl in order to seperate out the fats/waxes and that's how we get true stable shatter. That the purpose of developing winterization was for just that....to make wax into shatter. But anybody who really knows what they are talking about, please feel free to correct me. haha

    high-end carts that use CO2 that claim "solventless" are full of bullshit because they still distill their product onto "cartable" oilEconMan

    Distillation does not require, to my knowledge (which is skimpy at best), that the CO2 extraction be dissolved into another solvent. I don't believe that fractional distillation requires this at all. Again, more than willing to be corrected.

    every bona fide chemist I know tells me CO2 is a solvent itself.EconMan

    Well, here we get into semantics a bit...anything that dissolves an compound into solution is a solvent...no? But, in the common vernacular, I believe that when people talk solventless (as a marketing feature), they are addressing people's specific concerns regarding hydrocarbon based, highly volatile, solvents. No?

    Back to the ethyl extraction shown in the vid...I'd sort of like to know how they avoid pulling everything else out with the ethyl....and I think its probable that its the extremely cold temps that they use....I mean, I'm guessing that -100 F ethyl will only pick up the more easily dissolved compounds...like THC...and not the lipids and waxes...but I don't really know...just speculation.

    Interesting stuff...something to while away the time when not involved in knock out, drag down battles with trolls in the Political thread (can't believe that we have a political thread but even more shocked that I was stupid enough to open, read, and post to it. I need my head examined! haha
  • EconMan
    3.3k
    (can't believe that we have a political thread but even more shocked that I was stupid enough to open, read, and post to it. I need my head examined!Baron23

    Actually, I liked what you said. Values based without dogma. I even nominated you for POTUS :cool:
  • Gman
    1k
    actually there's dewaxing in the BHO closed loop system itself, so they don't need a secondary wash for making shatter or budder.

    They would only distillate it again to make carts or pure THC syringes.

    Wax is just shatter that has extra fats and lips left in it. And often they make crumble with the same extract by just forced nucleation, and it's less possible the more "clean" the extract is. So very fatty wax will nucleate much faster because those other "solids" will separate much easier than the THCa crystals would with just terps alone.

    Some people don't like "cumble/budder" so they just don't mix up the BHO before putting it in the vac. They also purge it a little lower temp.

    I also used to make my own quick wash ISO and Alcohol wax before I found rosin. So I got pretty good at it. Freezing the whole time winterisation, sun filtered to remove chlorophyll, and I have my own vac and heater. Still not as good as rosin though, I love rosin.
  • EconMan
    3.3k
    actually there's dewaxing in the BHO closed loop system itself, so they don't need a secondary wash for make shatter or budder.
    They would only distillate it again to make carts or pure THC syringes.
    Gman

    Yeah, again from my limited experience, this is why a "shatter run" doesn't need anything else as it has already been done. So I have found shatter only comes from a direct and quick pour to parchment. From there, if one wants shatter, ZERO post-pour agitation is important. Vacuum oven only. **If** it is agitated before the vacuum oven, then it will be some sort of budder/wax/crumble/etc depending on many factors I'm still discovering ???

    There are some people who do "runs of runs" but that is above my ski level right now. :gasp:
  • okla68m
    1.1k
    What is "Sun Filtering" & "Winterization" ?
    I use Frozen material and Ethanol out of the freezer also....do a Quick (<90 sec) Wash with Very Little Aggitation, just Swirling, pour thru coffer filter, pour into a 13x9 Pyrex cake pan sat on a Heated Slow Cooker base until evaporated, then scrape up with a razor blade and collect. If dried Too Much, when you go to Scrape, it explode's off the surface like nano-diamonds, covering Everything. ..when it touches your skin, the crystals become Sticky due to Body Warmth, so, to recover fully, one must scrape while Still WARM.
    Sometimes it turns Plastic like, others buddery....
    The Freezing Temps and Lack of Aggitation seem to Restrict the amount of Chlorophyll contamination !
  • Gman
    1k
    winterization is the act of freezing the material and solvent prior to first extraction with a screen filter. Then re-freezing this for 6-12 hours before the second "real" filtering with coffee filter. You are doing half a winterized QWE which is still very nice.

    As for Solar cleaning, if this end product still has any green in it, you can now let it warm up because you've complete the cold filtering. The best way is to put it in a sealed jar in sunlight for a few hours and the green will become golden yellow. You can then re-filter this if desired for taste but it's un-necessary. When you pour this final jar out into your evaporation pan you can just not put the last little pit of converted chlorophyll or fats sitting at the bottom.

    This solar step is really fine tuning for when you pull too much and can be left out of 80% of runs personally.
  • Baron23
    8.4k


    Interesting article that seems to distinguish ethanol "winterization" from closed loop "dewaxing"

    Not trying to be argumentative at all...I just remember reading older articles on winterization and cooling columns for "dewaxing" in closed loop systems is....well, apparently not new but new to me.

    https://potguide.com/pot-guide-marijuana-news/article/winterization-vs-de-waxing-which-method-is-best/
  • Gman
    1k
    Yes this is what I said earlier, they are really different tech.

    actually there's dewaxing in the BHO closed loop system itself, so they don't need a secondary wash for making shatter or budderGman
  • EconMan
    3.3k
    This series is most interesting and full of good information.

  • MrGreen
    140
    I found this interesting. Nice clean product.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SjKgNRKuTg&feature=share
  • EconMan
    3.3k


    That is interesting! :100:
    Liked it so much I've started it up again.

    And it served up a trippy "futuristic" one.

  • okla68m
    1.1k
    EXCELLENT ARTICLE !
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