• It's in the details
    I know most of you here are probably suspicious of main stream reporting/thinking about vaping and I know there are a lot of dyi-ers making your own concentrates, etc., and I love that. After having one at a party,I've been totally in love with vape pens bought at two medical dispensaries -- one in Boston and one in Providence .... so stealth. SO fast. So high. so tiny. so easy to draw on. But I've had a slight sore throat and been tired and sick for a few weeks.... and just through them out. Kills me. Now my big question is whether vaping with a FF2+ and a pax 3 could possibly be as bad? or bad in some way. this is probably the wrong place to ask that! Shoot. Nobody really talks about what it's like to poach medical grade plastic, for instance...bummer.
  • SouthboundPachyderm
    the reports in the news have been linked to oils, the ones in question have been found to have vitamin E acetate in them. That shouldn't be an issue when using a dry herb vape, like the ones you mentioned.
  • LabPong
    You are comparing an oil mixture...with raw flower.....2 highly different and encompassing elements. Even though the hardware is different to use these types of THC......the hardware is not really what you need to be so worried about.

    To summarize the oil cartridge types of vapes....unless you live in a Med legal state and can get state licensed products...you are at a very high risk to get crap product. But even though you can get tested products from licensed dispo's....they may not all be safe in total.....carts are a risk right now because you have no idea of every element that was put in them....unless you are the one that is putting everything in there yourself....but even that...can be a gamble as many are trying to profit from the sale of the new THC tech that is oil carts.

    Now with using flower in a vape.....there are vapes that are better than others for sure. Using a vape with a clean vapor-path is important.....but also that often comes down to personal preference to taste and strength. But to your question about if a FF2 or a Pax could be as bad.......sure if you put bad stuff in it! But if you have good clean flower....no worries.
  • BestBuds
    It seems we live in the same area of the country. I can't do carts at all. They burn like I gargled with acid and bleach. Carts can have other junk in them that I don't want in my lungs.
    Putting actual buds in a vape is much better than carts or other concentrates. IMO even the unbalanced strains are a "sometimes treat". The new super hi thc bud isn't balanced in my opinion. If I vape let's say Chocolate OG from Cultivate for a few weeks I get jittery and mentally I start to have high anxiety.
    I do however use wax from cultivate. Again, as a treat. I got some CBD wax and I'll vape a little of each. It " feels" more balanced.

    But yeah, carts make me feel like garbage.
  • It's in the details
    So sad about the carts!!!!! But, it's true. I guess my issue now is the vapor path of these two vaporizers.... thanks guys...
  • LabPong
    So sad about the carts!!!!! But, it's true. I guess my issue now is the vapor path of these two vaporizers.... thanks guys...
    It's in the details

    The Pax will be more convenient.....but will have not as good tasting vapor as the FF2's. Pax is easier to use. FF2 will allow use of concentrates too....but using with flower is not as easy because you need to stir and it gets sort of messy quick. But is it easy to clean compared to the Pax.

    Any dry herb vape will have pros and cons when you compare them to others. So you have to know what is best for your use type. Where you vape, how much you vape, and how important taste and power of vapor are to you.
  • warren0728
    it sure would be nice to have a flower vape with the convenience and stealthiness of a cart ... i hate vaping carts but they are so damn convenient and stealthy ...
  • TheZman
    Vaping Pure Flower in a dry Herb Vaporizer is the best and only way to go IMO. You couldn't pay me to use Carts with oil. You'll never know what else is in it. Dont trust waxes and shatters either. Just use as nature intended.
  • Dr green thumb
    If you didnt buy black market carts or concentrate keep on doing what you've been doing.
  • LabPong
    If you didnt buy black market carts or concentrate keep on doing what you've been doing.Dr green thumb

    In MI ...that is not a safe choice still !
  • John Cocktostone

    The happenings in Utah.

    This is what my immunologist told me a bit back before this major "scare". Advised a avoid them and Juuls etc..
  • It's in the details

    All I want to know now is which is the the absolutely least toxic vaporizer to use.

    I'm using the firefly 2+ and really, it's perfectly great. The only think I dislike is that I can't take short draws, that's all. I don't have to have big clouds.... sure, I like them (that's the smoking addiction part of all this) but at this point, after getting off course with bad carts, I just want the least toxic way to medicate via the lungs (edibles last too long for my liking although they are great sometimes).

    I do not get big clouds with FF2+, but I get vapor easy enough and most importantly, I get high anyway, so I don't care about that at this point. (And not having to grind is great... and it's easy to clean. and the flavor is lovely.)

    But.... so.... I've just ordered a pax 3 because I wanted to take short puffs. (I also bought the New Vape vented lid, so I can (theoretically) use less material.) BUT I don't receive it until tomorrow, and now I'm wondering if the mostly stainless vapor path of the Pax 3 is as safe as the FF2+. Undoubtedly, there are other concerns that affect the purity of the vapor...I may return the pax without opening it. Gonna research a lot today. I have to learn about the materials in the heater getting exposed to the vapor path.

    Thank goodness for the FF2+!
  • EconMan

    Vaping is not good for you. It can't be. I'll say it again. A convection vape, like the FF2, is indistinguishable from how I make beef jerky. Hot air damages your lungs. We know this from the abundance of cigarette research -- hot air is bad for your lungs, whether it is from a house fire or a vape. A large part of the lung disease and injury was not merely nicotine, but the heat.

    Anything that cools the vapor BEFORE it enters your lungs is a healthy marginal abatement, but in its totality only a stretch of a rationalization can claim "vaping is healthy for you" It isn't. That said, for those like me who nevertheless choose to vape, I want to vape via a "best-practices" model so that the negative health aspects of vaping are optimized. Unless the damage is infinity, there is always an optimal positive quantity of any bad thing.

    My advice. Use our brains. Repeated sucking on a short cart with your mouth inches from the heater, with little if any "cooling" engineered into it, WILL with strong certainty damage your lungs. I suck on a cart for stealth/travel only. When I do use a cart, I use it through water.

    Just use as nature intended.TheZman

    By my thinking it is "natural". Humans are "3rd conscious" self-aware creatures. Consciousness in humans is natural. Hence, whatever we produce from bibles to nukes to child pornography is "natural" from the big picture of the "natural" cosmos. If a beaver creates a dam that is natural just as if humans do it with their created machines.

    If you didnt buy black market carts or concentrate keep on doing what you've been doing.Dr green thumb

    Sounds logical to me. I benefit from the legal states but I don't live in one. Every legal state I've studied has rules and regulations around concentrates. It doesn't mean everyone obeys the law of course but a reputable dispensary will -- if they don't they will lose their license and their merchant account if they have one.

    Unless it is a distillate the oil MUST be cut with something to make it work in a cart. The problem with distillates is it is almost impossible to get a "full spectrum" (all the terps and cannabinoids). It is possible to "fractionally" distill, and capture all the authentic terps from the flower, but it is VERY complicated, requires VERY expensive equipment, and is VERY labor intensive. USUALLY, they add foreign terps captured in a bulk distillation designed to capture that particular terp via "boiling point" arbitrage.

    So the economics of "carts" are economies of scale. Mass production. One distillation takes out thc. Another CBD... etc.... It works sort of like old style color prints.... They often needed three runs through the printer (three base colors) to process.

    So MOST cart juice is "pieced" together to get the flavors and strains advertised. Hence a Skywalker OG cart, *might* NOT have been made with actually Skywalker OG, but rather some generic mixture for the taste they are trying to hawk. No legal state has any legislation regulating ingredients or marketing "strain names".

    There are advantages too. Let's say a person is allergic or sensitive to a particular terp/cannabinoid, with distillation it can be removed (actually, it was already "removed" so it is not "put back in").

    Reputation is everything. I have no problem using bought oils of any style, but I am picky.

    A BIGGIE danger IMO is butane poisoning. Most states require a max average threshold of 5000 parts-per-million. IMO, this is waaaaay TO HIGH. :gasp: A person ultra sensitive to butane/propane like @Gman can get very sick at 5000ppm.

    Roughly to not exceed 5000ppm, one has to "vacuum purge" their pour for about one day. I personally do not want to vape any bho/pho extract that was only purged for 24 hours. To put it in context, when I make mine (I learned this from my MJ client in CO) I purge it for six days.

    BTW, if you're buying $25 carts on the black market, it may not have been purged at all. :gasp: The first time you hit it you'll think... this is potent! What a value.... Misleading. You're literally getting high on and being poisoned by butane -- which impacts the lungs and brain (propane attacks the central nervous system -- both bad hair days).

    Lastly, according to my MJ client (who is also a grower and runs a lab), he believes to really get a good 1g cart with well-made oil, you'll need to spend minimum $50 retail (he is in CO).
  • TheZman
    In a lot of places its not. Look at Oregon. Same problem in there Dispensaries..
  • TheZman
    I'll Make it simple. You want the best and safest possible way to use Cannabis? Only use plants grown from a reputable grower in a state regulated Lab tested market or grow your own if you can. And use a excellent quality herb Vaporizer on the lowest setting with a cooling device like a water pipe or bubbler. Also instead of inhaling the hot air straight into your lungs practice holding it in your mouth for 5 seconds with your cheeks puffed out and then inhale. That cools it even more. That's what I do. No issues.

    Anything other then that the risk gets elevated.
  • It's in the details

    BUT I don't feel the vapor to be hot with the FF2+ for instance... I can feel it going into my mouth and touching my tongue: it's not hot. I don't think it's just whether the vapor is hot when it reaches your mouth that is the only potentially damaging part of it...IF the vapor when it was hot passed over toxic elements it will contain those elements even if the vapor has cooled by the time you inhale it.
  • It's in the details

    Agreed.. but again.... with my FF2+, I don't feel the vapor to be hot. It's not hot when it enters my mouth. But where was it and what was it exposed to when it was hot?
  • It's in the details
    same problem with dispensaries in Mass and R.I.
  • Dankpup
    My dispensary has a lab across the street, I actually see workers in lab coats going to lunch sometimes. I would trust their carts over a black market cart, My Nostradamus prediction is we’ll find the black market carts are being filled with “stuff” from the country of origin, not trying to be xenophobic, but melamine in the baby formula.
  • TheZman
    When what was hot? I think your over thinking it. As long as your doing what I said there not much to worry about. Nothing else really to debate. Or dont use at all and be 100% safe. No other options really. Unless you want to buy or grow Cannabis heat it and then use it in edible form. That's about it.
  • TheZman
    Yep I know. Not in Pennsylvania though.
  • It's in the details

    when the vapor was hot... which it must be when the heat hits it... then it passes through everything it passes though in the vapor path and cools down...
    yeah. I might be overthinking...
  • Baron23
    Here is the deal in MD and I believe all other regulated med programs.

    But first, let me say that the cases of what looks like lipid pneumonia are a new cluster. That is, public health officials did NOT overlook this in the past. Simply put, in the past this either was not occurring or if occuring do so in very rare instances. Something CHANGED and the change is in the adulterants that assholes started putting in their cart juice.

    Our carts are all tested here in MD to incl recent addition of lead that may leech out from the hardware.

    You can go to the MD COMAR regulations and see what they test for and the pass/fail criteria for passing.

    Our carts contain a label that tell you the qty of some major cannibinoids and terpenes.

    They do NOT contain a list of ALL increments and I don't believe other state do so either.

    Now to me, all ingredients doesn't mean that they have to tease out qty of all 200 (or more) possible cannabinoids. I would be happy with the MJ compound listings we currently have.

    Its ALL other additives and adulterants that should be listed....really, must be listed.

    Does anybody know of any other state requiring listing of ALL ingredients aside from MJ extractions in their carts?
  • EconMan
    Something CHANGED and the change is in the adulterants that assholes started putting in their cart juice.Baron23

    Yeah. Where there is smoke, there may be fire.

    A student at a local highschool near me apparently was making money selling carts with crisco and some food coloring as the oil. The school struggled with what to do (once the figured out it was just crisco).... But Baron's point is well made. Lots of assholes out there unconcerned whether they put someone in a hospital. I don't know what vaping vegetable oil does, and I don't want to. But if a highschool kid did it, I'm sure some "hustlers" have as well.
  • BestBuds
    If you are not breathing clean air, your lungs are not healthy. Full stop. :100:
    If you live in a city, air pollution is hurting you and your chance of serious illness goes up. If you smoke or vape anything, you are harming yourself even more. If you add chemicals to the process, it makes it that much worse.

    What is YOUR acceptable risk to your health?

    If I didn't have cannabis for my pain I would be on opiates. :fear: For me vaping dry herb is an acceptable risk, in certain circumstances I will accept a concentrate but I am picky with how it's made. Like @EconMan pointed out butane is really bad. I do not accept BHO of any extract made with butane. I know or will develop my personal acceptable risk as things progress in the cannabis world. You have to do the same. Do your own research on what the downside of every material in your vapor path is.

    Again, what harm are YOU willing to do to your body? (btw having Macdonald's fries is also harming yourself :joke: )
  • TheZman
    Rough guide and JMO on the Safest to the least safest way to consume. Not a professional opinion.
    1. Dont use at all. Estimated 100% Safe

    2. Using Natural Plant Cannabis from a Lab tested State Certified Dispensary with a quality Herb Vaporizer with Cooling Device or Making it into an Edible form. Estimated 90% Safe.

    3. Using Shatter, Butter, wax or Similar from a highly regulated State Medical Dispensary in a High quality Vaporizer or glass rig. Estimated 75% Safe.

    4. Using an oil Cart from a Regulated State Lab tested Medical Dispensary. Estimated 70% Safe

    5. Using Flower from a Legal non Regulated state Estimated 65% Safe

    5. Using Shatter, Wax ,Butter ect.. From a Legal non Regulated State. Estimated 40% safe.

    6. Using Flower from the Black Market from an unknown source. Estimated 30% safe.

    7. Using Wax ,Butter , Shatter from the Black market from an unknown source. Estimated 15% safe.
    8. Using a Cartridge from an unknown source on the Black market. Estimated 10% safe.

    This is just my opinion and I could have refined it more. But it's a rough estimate. I chose 90% and higher for personal use. Anything else forget it.
  • BestBuds
    What would a none regulated state be? Is there a reliable list?
  • EconMan

    Back to my "philosophy" -- two words -- No Excuses. :nerd:

    Life can be thought of as a process over time of "controlled death". We are all literally dying. With every breath we take, the probability of taking another one literally declines; yet, if we don't try to take another at all, the probability is 0%. It is a conundrum barely fathomable.

    It is entirely possible that for some people, the damage of the stress over a thing exceeds the actual damage of the thing.

    Rough guide and JMO on the Safest to the least safest way to consumeTheZman

    Interesting subjectivity! :cool:
    I completely I think understand how your feeling on the subject. Almost like the restaurant rule -- if in doubt throw it out..

    I see it a rather differently. We have numerous examples over hundreds of years of "black markets" and corresponding studies, and we do know often illegal goods have been of better quality than their "legal" competitors. Often it is the black market that provisions the best stuff because regulators won't let the "good stuff" through for whatever reason. A great example was cheese in the old Soviet Union. Even the party apparatchiks bought illegal cheese. Cheese entrepreneurs, knew the twenty years of hard-labor punishment for ANY illegal (non-government approved) cheese-trafficker caught, so it was rational for them to choose to make and sell the best cheese that earned the highest price. A ton of great cheese has the same size and weight of a ton of bad cheese -- the difference is the great cheese can command an incredibly higher price.
    Likewise, if you're going to go to jail for selling flower, you might as well sell the best quality you can and make some profit as a price of your risk.

    Then there is "capture theory" where over time the regulatory agencies become "captured" by the very industries they supposedly are suppose to regulate. Expertise usually has to come from the industry and the "revolving door" between the regulator and the regulated eventually just gets stuck open.

    I also find it interesting about stoners in general. Their values are often contradictory here.
    Seems to me they tend to dislike and distrust the pharmaceutical companies (some use the word "evil") a LOT, and the institutions that make them possible; yet, they magically believe marijuana will be different and somehow governed and regulated by different political institutional structures? It won't be.

    Someday you'll buy your shatter made by Pfizer and sold by Walmart and Amazon. The best vapes will near all be "black-market" vapes because the cost of the regulatory overhead will drive the innovative little companies out of business who can't afford to jump through all the hoops of the regulators, themselves part of the "marijuana pharmaceutical complex" with its own revolving door.
    A lot of people I talk to are so looking forward to the Federal Government getting involved with marijuana -- legalization, regulating, licensing -- I am dreading it. And just wait and see when the Feds engage federally, what happens to "medical marijuana" once the insurance companies grab hold of it with all their lobbyists.

    I much prefer the black market. My sources know I am a creampuff. Smooth dependable transactions with no bullshit and I pay as agreed. I've returned flower I thought was poorly advertised. He wants me to keep patronizing his business, and I want him to keep growing and doing what he does so well. In this sense, I just LOVE black markets. Real relationships. Freedom at its best. And yes, it's worst too. :nerd:

    A good rule of life: Know your customer. Know your seller.
  • BestBuds
    Back to my "philosophy" -- two words -- No Excuses. :nerd:

    Life can be thought of as a process over time of "controlled death". We are all literally dying. With every breath we take, the probability of taking another one literally declines; yet, if we don't try to take another at all, the probability is 0%. It is a conundrum barely fathomable.

    It is entirely possible that for some people, the damage of the stress over a thing exceeds the actual damage of the thing
    Exactly! Acceptable risk.

    Someday you'll buy your shatter made by Pfizer and sold by Walmart and Amazon.EconMan
    :groan: :cry:
  • EconMan
    Exactly! Acceptable risk.BestBuds

    Yes. If I have one gripe about American culture, is we are becoming a bunch of pussies. We raise our kids to be pussies.
    I can't even drive out of my fucking neighborhood anymore because so many parents are driving their kids to school and picking them up... and they live a mile or two from the school. Mothers have even started accompanying their sons to university... FML.... I'm very certain it began when CNN began, but SAFETY has become an obsession with the assumption that under NO circumstances should anyone, especially a child, EVER be allowed to risk hurting themselves. Indeed, my neighbor does not allow her children to even play outside. The poor little mother fuckers are essentially in jail -- now to me that's child abuse -- to them it is being a responsible and protective parent.

    A dear friend was recently reported to CPS by some bitch neighbor because he posted a pic of him and his 14yo son climbing a mountain face with ropes. They threatened to take his son away... saying he was "endangering" the boy. What he was actually doing was facilitating self-confidence, and bonding emotionally with his son doing something they both happen to love. Fortunately, he has some money and they backed off.
    Fuck those assholes. They can sail their ship of safety until they sink it.
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