• Hunter1
    10
    The boiling point of benzene is 176F degrees, yet some articles claim that it is not produced until your vape is cranked up to 392F degrees. So what's the real truth? Anyone have any info?
  • ShowTime
    7
    If You're looking for a long life vape fresh air at 2000 metres... so You can come in Europe or go to Canada because in America You have only 6561 feets high mountains :D
  • Hunter1
    10
    Answers related to the question are much appreciated
  • AVENTUS
    330
    It was always my understanding that benzene is not always present in fresh frozen or fresh harvested cannabis, but is largely the result of a reaction of a combination of naturally occurring compounds/sesquiterpenes, when all simultaneously exposed to 392'F
  • Hunter1
    10
    Aah ok, that makes sense. Where'd you learn this?
  • Baron23
    9.5k
    I agree with @AVENTUS, all of the cannabis vaporization temperature data I have on benzene shows a boiling point of 392 F (definitely not 172 F) but of course if you just google boiling point of benzene you will get 172F. Kind of weird.

    Also, in all of the cannabis vape temp data I have found so far, none show a percentage of benezen...I think because as @AVENTUS stated its variable with other factors or perhaps because its just a non-quantifiable trace substance in vapor.

    Even with the 392 F data, one must always keep in mind that this data is collected on a pure sample of the substance boiled in a vacuum. We can expect substances to come out over a range and look like some kind of bell curve (time on X axis, qty of substance released on Y axis) around this boiling point as we don't vape in a vacuum and the substances are embedded in a plant matrix, not a pure sample

    One article I found: http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/Second-Study-Shows-Vaporizers-Drastically-Reduce-Toxins-in-Marijuana-Smoke

    previous studies have found that vaporizers can reduce harmful toxins in cannabis smoke. However this is the first study to analyze the gas phase of the vapor for a wide range of toxins. A previous NORML/MAPS study conducted by Chemic Labs found that a vaporizer known as the M-1 Volatizer® completely eliminated three specific toxins (naphthalene, benzene and toluene) in. the solid phase of the vapor (D. Gieringer, "Cannabis Vaporization: A Promising Strategy for Smoke Harm Reduction," Journal of Cannabis Therapeutics Vol. 1#3-4: 153-70 (2001)).

    The new study used a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer (GCMS) to examine the gas components of the vapor. The analysis showed that the Volcano® vapor was remarkably clean, consisting 95% of THC with traces of cannabinol (CBN), another cannabinoid. The remaining 5% consisted of small amounts of three other components: one suspected cannabinoid relative, one suspected PAH, and caryophyllene, a fragrant oil in cannabis and other plants. In contrast over 111 different components appeared in the gas of the combusted smoke, including a half dozen known PAHs. Non-cannabinoids accounted for as much as 88% of the total gas content of the smoke.

    And another article: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/is-vaping-really-safer-than-smoking/Content?oid=20884897

    One example is cannabidiol (CBD), the medically relevant cousin of THC. Although not psychoactive like THC, it still binds neurons and can modulate the effects produced by THC. Because CBD has a higher boiling point than THC, it's present in smoke but not in vapor produced at lower temperatures. Vapor also lacks smoke toxins that cause drowsiness, like benzene and carbon monoxide.

    Here is another support for 392 F for benzene in cannabis: http://cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-7.pdf

    In a recent study, traces of THC were vaporized at temperatures as low as 140°C (284°F)
    and the majority of THC vaporized by 185°C (365°F); benzene and other carcinogenic vapors did not appear until 200°C (392°F), and cannabis combustion occurred around 230°C (446°F) (Gieringer 2001).

    Now this is just me...but aside from folks who have heavy metal poisoning, very compromised immune systems and other very serious illnesses....I personally think many people take this type of data completely out of context and then have anxiety attacks about the "harmful substances in this or that cannabis or vape device". They seem to do this, for the most part, entirely divorced from any perspective on the chemical environment in which they spend their whole day breathing. I think some people just like to worry endlessly and seem more focused soley on preserving life at the expense of actually living it. Ok, off my soap box and end of rant! LOL
  • Hunter1
    10
    Yea a little off track there lol. The boiling point of benzene is 176F, but if aventus is correct, he's saying that it is not present in the weed until chemical reactions produce it at 392F. Therefore at 176F
    there's no benzene to boil. Thanks for further proving his theory with the articles.
  • AVENTUS
    330
    Correct. And I think only very small amounts of it begin to be produced at 392'f.

    That's apparently the FIRST temp where HINTS of benzene are created by chemical reaction of heat and sesquiterpenes/etc.

    Then as temps increase to the point of combustion 451'f, more benzene is produced, and at 600'f even more is produced and so on and so on.

    So for example smoking a joint (900-1000 degree cherry when lit&hit) might create and release like 20x the benzene that vaping at sub-combustion temps above 392 could ever produce.

    But at 392-430, I think it's a very small amount, far less than what one might inhale at a gas station where someone spilled while filling up.
  • AVENTUS
    330
    When blunt smokers complain of any other method "not being the same", we assume it's a lack of nicotine.

    It's my opinion that when seasoned joint smokers or bong/glass tokers complain of low temp pens, or low temp dabbing, as not giving them as "full" of a high as smokin flower, it's that they literally are quite used to the feelings of disorientation and intoxicating that comes with the chemical reaction of pyrolysis, and all the nasty byproducts, including benzen, carbon monoxide, tar, etc, that are produced at exponentially higher rates during combustion, than they are at vaporization temps significantly below combustion (especially below 392'f from what I have read over the years)

    I always disliked smoking, and feel I never got desensitized much less accustomed to the feeling of any burn or sting or toxin ingesting. So when I taste any hint of it in various different "vaporization" devices, i'm very sensitive to it.
  • AVENTUS
    330
    Just in case is wasn't already settled, for any doubters:

    https://www.massroots.com/learn/dab-temperature-change-your-high
  • Bruce
    1.5k
    I vote this response the response of the year. Tremendous, I feel like I learned alot from that post. Thanx

    ^ . ^ ^ T h e V a p e M a s t e r ^ . ^ . ^
  • AVENTUS
    330
    For all the people who mistakenly followed the benzene scare, and/or believed it couldn't be PRODUCED at a temperature higher than it's vapor point....

    It does get produced at high temps, and is immediately available to your mouths, throats and lungs as a vapor, synthesized thru degradation via pyrolysis, from various terpenes, and the amounts of benzene and MC increase as you raise your temps higher and higher.

    Glowing red coils are 900'f+ FYI

    Highest temp tested in lab was 1022'F (550'c)

    MC was not synthesized from any terpene at temps below 611'F (322'c)
    Benzene begins to be synthesized in small amounts around 400'F, and much more is created the higher our temps go.

    !!! KEEP YOUR TEMPS LOW MY PEOPLE !!!

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsomega.7b01130
  • AVENTUS
    330
    This is why I stopped using coils, when I found out my coiled atomizer I first started combusting wax with many years ago was reaching temps in the 900's within 5seconds (glowing red)

    Thru much trial and error, and lots of testing different devices, I know what each temp tastes like and I can tell the difference when each respective cannabinoid is turned into vapor, as well as when each terpene is released into vapor.

    I also test each new pen with two food grade thermometers on its heating element at each different temp setting the device has, to see how accurate the stated temperature is.

    Thru all this studying, testing, and preference, I made the following decision for long term health, and for the most enjoyable flavor as well:

    I never go above 392'F (200'c)
    I encourage everyone else to do the same.
  • LabPong
    3.1k
    Excellent thread posting Hunter ! Thanks for the great info Aventus, I would love to sit down for a couple sessions with you and go over the tastes/heat levels. I usually keep my temps lower too....I like starting just below THC melting points and then go at it....and if I need just above 374F.

    And Baron..you....what are we going to do with you? Well.....please feel free to rant more......haaaa
  • Baron23
    9.5k
    Here is a summary article about the study.....temps where benzene is generated are very high.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2017/09/butane_hash_oil_releases_carci.html
  • frandemarco
    107
    Thanks man I never really go above 370..but geez I remember when I was smoking I can only imagine the temps I was at
  • Baron23
    9.5k
    Cutting and pasting a bit of conversation I had on another board with a friend who is a bio-scientist.


    A layman summary article on the scientific study cited above by Mom. The impression I get is that these measurments were taken from material dabbed at very high temps...or very high for me. While I run my Liger coil at 585-590 F, the actual dab surface temp is more like 540F. In this study, I believe that they ran at 550C = 1022F. Real hot. I believe that their lowest temp was 430C = 806F.....still real hot, IMO.
    http://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2017/09/butane_hash_oil_releases_carci.html
    — Baron23


    This is something I've wanted to see for a very long time! I'll be back here when I get the chance to have a good look at this study and all relevant limitations and strengths. You're right bro, the temps used seem to be very, very hot! I pity whoever is dabbing at 1022f!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ouch!

    A few key considerations so far:

    * This study doesn't outline the method used for heating the nail during the experimental procedure. It is a hive ceramic 10mm domeless element nail, which is sold for 'torch use only'. This suggests torch use. I do not see any cause to dispute the method used to measure the temp of the nail however (thermographic camera).

    * As above, the temps used here were almost all much higher than most or any of us would ever dab. Figure one, which identifies levels of methacrolein found at various dabbing temps refers to experimental conditions with median temperatures ranging from 322-526 centigrade (611f - 1022f).

    In the 322c median temp condition, there was no observed release of this irritant compound. This is noteworthy, since I certainly would not be dabbing at any of the temps beyond that! The next median temp measured on the dish is 403c (757f). In this case, methacrolein was detected but the level was within the margins for error set by the authors for this study. At all successive increased temps, the levels of methacrolein found in subsequent NMR testing were beyond that which could be accounted for by the margin of error alone, and these dabbing temps as such can be suggested to be problematic. I do not recommend high temp dabs at all, but especially given these findings, we should avoid them!

    There are a number of other limitations that I suspect here, but will need to read more thoroughly. Please note that my comments above may have missed some relevant details in the study, I've only given it one full read through :peace:
    — Herbivore21

    It does seem to me still that the temps at which they are finding these toxic gasses generated are very high....much higher than most (that I know of) would with an enail. They did use a Hive ceramic nail which implies they used a torch. I have no suggestion for torch folks who gauge temp by feel on their hand, but for enails, at least for me, about 550 F is as high as I would go and that's well below the temps that they ran with.
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